“I Have Sold My Soul to ‘Dance Moms”’: The Show’s Enigmatic Creator Speaks | Vanity Fair

Oct 18, 2024

“You’re the first interview that I’ve ever done about Dance Moms—ever,” says Bryan Stinson. Though he’s overseen more than 300 hours of television about promising young dancers, their meddling stage moms, and the coach who sows drama between them, he’s never had the glare of a spotlight turned back on him.

Stinson is passionate about his brainchild, which has spawned multiple spin-offs, including Hulu’s recently released revival, Dance Moms: A New Era. “I have sold my soul to Dance Moms,” he says proudly at the start of our conversation. But he’s also hesitant to talk about it. “I’ve stayed hidden a little bit,” Stinson admits.

The series creator and showrunner, who originally designed the show around confrontational dance teacher Abby Lee Miller, helped concoct the pyramid structure she used to rank her elite dancers and shepherded Dance Moms on Lifetime from 2011 to 2019. Some original cast members have fond memories, which they expressed in a reunion held earlier this year. But other major players who have been critical of the series skipped that event—including breakout performer Maddie Ziegler. Nickelodeon star turned viral pop singer JoJo Siwa, who also got discovered on the show, is one of the few OG stars to publicly support Miller—who was charged in 2015 with concealing over $750,000 in a secret bank account and faced 20 counts related to bankruptcy fraud. Miller ultimately pleaded guilty to hiding income she had earned after filing for bankruptcy. She was sentenced to a year in prison, served eight months, and is now cancer-free following a diagnosis of Burkitt lymphoma, a rare and aggressive form of the disease.

Now Stinson is rebooting an already contentious unscripted series about kids at a moment when pop culture has grown increasingly aware of the dangers inherent to both child stardom and reality TV. The Wall Street Journal called the reboot, which debuted August 7, a “classic hate-watch.” IndieWire argued it “continues a dangerous legacy.”

But Dance Moms: A New Era is unafraid of courting backlash. New coach Glo Hampton leads her Virginia-based team through increasingly unhinged routines in which kids must dance for their lives—sometimes literally. Those with the weakest rehearsals for a Nationals number themed around the fentanyl crisis are the first to “overdose” in the dance—and they get zipped into body bags during the performance, one by one. Solo dances seem to be intentionally inspired by controversial issues involving minors: One dancer, Smiley, plops herself into a well for a Baby Jessica–themed number. “She was 14 when she met Elvis? Ew,” remarks another, Audrey, of her Priscilla Presley–themed dance. A third, Ashlan, inexplicably does a routine based on JonBenét Ramsey’s murder. “I don’t wanna pretend to be strangled,” she says, “but I’ll do everything to win.” (She can barely crack a smile after placing fourth.)

During a nearly hour-long Zoom, it becomes clear that Stinson hasn’t entirely figured out how to “think out loud” about Dance Moms and its impact. Here, he gives it a try: “Look, you’ve heard a lot about the show. You’ve heard a lot about what the girls go through, but this show prepared those girls for anything. There’s nothing that the girls could not do if they survive Dance Moms.”

Vanity Fair: Given how successful the original Dance Moms was, what were your hopes and fears about A New Era?

Bryan Stinson: People said that we couldn’t do it again. We knew we were going to be compared to the old show and the OGs. So that was my biggest concern. I’ve been interviewing dance studios for the past 10 years, trying to find the next cast. I knew that I wanted a dance teacher that had a good reputation in the dance competition world, but also a reputation for winning. I did not want an Abby imitator. You would not believe the teachers that I would talk to that would send in a home tape and dress like Abby. They would walk around the studio acting like Abby, and that’s absolutely not what we want.

I remembered that Studio Bleu consistently beat the ALDC [Abby Lee Dance Company] over the seasons and after my first interview with Glo, I knew she was the one. She wasn’t trying to be Abby. Look, she’s still tough, but she’s not nasty. Abby ruled with an iron fist. The kids were scared to speak. Glo encourages personality. And I know that’s really hard. When a kid has an opinion and speaks up on a TV show, they’re immediately going to be called brats or difficult or mean to their mothers. But at the end of the day, these are really good, talented kids, and they have TV personalities.

What is your current status with Abby?

Let me just say, I think Abby Lee Miller is the greatest reality character of all time. You will never find another Abby. We have a very up and down, rollercoaster, truly love-hate relationship. We still text, we still go to dinner, we still talk on the phone. We’re in constant contact. Abby will tell me that she’s not watching the show and she’s not going to watch the show, which she said about the reunion as well. But I have a pretty good bet that she’s watching the show.

Glo and Abby were friends. After Abby kicked Glo [and her daughter, Kaeli Ware] off of the team [on the original series], they actually became super close friends. Up until a year ago, Glo was going on vacations with Abby, actually taking care of Abby when she got into an accident. But when Glo got the show, I had to keep it a secret. I wouldn’t allow her to tell anyone. So she didn’t tell Abby until it broke. I think that really hurt Abby’s feelings. Abby felt like she should be the first to know and she wasn’t. Put a bad taste in her mouth. So, Glo and Abby are not speaking.

What did you learn from hosting the reunion of the OG cast members—hearing both their positive and negative experiences?

I had the pleasure of interviewing all the girls for 10 hours. They all said they were incredibly grateful for the platform. It prepared them for the industry. While there were very tough times, every single one of them said that they would do it again.

The magic of the show came from the history of the cast. All those kids and moms and Abby, all that drama was there way before the cameras started rolling. We were shooting 31 episodes a year. They were spending every single day together. People throw the word toxic around a lot with the show. But when people that have all this history spend that much time together, relationships are going to... They fall apart. I think that’s natural, especially when you’re in front of cameras and all the situations are heightened. We got to a point in the later seasons where it was virtually impossible to repair the relationships, and it got really nasty.

What I love about Studio Bleu is they all have the same history. Glo has been training some of these girls since they were two and three years old. She’s going to yell at the kids if she needs to yell, but she doesn’t cross the line.

As a reality TV producer, is there a line that you won’t cross?

Obviously some of the things that were going on in the original series you couldn’t touch today. Look, I don’t go around telling people what they can’t say. I just don’t produce that way. When you have a cast with all this history, they’re going to say things that are inappropriate and do things that they’re going to regret, especially when you’re asking people to think out loud, and live in their truth. It’s not normal, Savannah, for people to think out loud every single day and say things you normally wouldn’t say, but it is a TV show. So, yes. Do I have a line? Absolutely. If things get too personal or are inappropriate, then I will step in and shut it down.

Things get really personal in the new show. In the second episode, a medium gives the group a reading for their spiritually themed group number where we learn that Min and Mina, a mother and daughter on the show, lost their son and brother in a car crash.

Savannah, it was shocking. It was the 25th anniversary of Glo losing her child at around nine months. She wanted to pay tribute to her son, so she created an episode around that dance, and wanted a medium to come in. You only see it once in the show, but she kept coming back to, “I feel a car accident.” I looked at Min. I could tell something was going on, but she was refusing to speak. She had not told anyone at the studio. Only Mina knew. As you can see in the show, her parents [in China] don’t even know that her child was hit by a car. It was about 15 minutes after the medium left that Mina spoke up and said, “I lost my brother in a car accident. He was hit by a car at an intersection.”

So the hardest part as a producer in this particular episode is, how in the world do you go back to dancing? It just felt inappropriate to move on from what we just discovered to go back to rehearsing and performing duets at this competition. So out of respect for them, we cut the duets and spend more time on the group number. Eventually, Min tells her story. I don’t think even to this day she really wants to talk about or deal with it. I really wanted to put up a card at the end of the show in his memory, and she said no.

As in the original show, a lot of heavy topics get discussed through routines this season. What role does production play in selecting themes, and was there one that you are most nervous about?

It’s a collaboration. The schedule is insane. Every other studio that we’re competing against rehearsed that one dance for six months before they put it on stage. These kids have two and a half days to rehearse their number. We start on a Wednesday afternoon and they’re performing Saturday morning. So obviously, Glo has to have help and developing stories. We want to tell stories that people are going to talk about. My favorite dances are all the social conscious dances from Dance Moms that get the most attention.

We knew we wanted to do “Body Bags” from day one. It was so powerful that we wanted to save it for Nationals. I was inspired by Ava Michelle Cota’s story. She was on Dance Moms, now a movie star in [Netflix’s] Tall Girl. Her brother passed away from an accidental fentanyl poisoning. She was kind enough to tell her story on the show.

I am concerned about some of the dances, and are we going too far and is this something good for kids. But honestly, that one, we did it on purpose. I wanted to scare the shit out of kids and parents by this number. What better way to do it than to see body bags? One of my favorite moments of all Dance Moms history is the exercise that Glo had the moms do—to walk over right before they’re about to perform it, and write their kid’s name on a toe tag and put it on the body bag that they’re about to crawl into. I want you to know what that feels like. You need to do whatever it takes to not have this happen to your kid.

There is that desire to educate, to provoke. But at what cost? How do you know if you’ve taken things too far or introduced a topic to kids that they’re not ready for?

I mean, Savannah, how do you know? One thing I’ve done my entire career is take risks. My philosophy, whether it’s good or bad, is I don’t produce a show for kids. I produce a show for adults. I’ve stuck with that. We never thought in a million years that we would have so many kids watching, but we do. Here’s the thing: Dance Moms is so successful because we are a little bit of everything. We are Housewives, we’re Dancing With the Stars, we’re So You Think You Can Dance, we’re a mother-daughter relationship show.

Dance Moms could feel like a more transparent way of exploring the idea of child stars because the parent has to be as involved and exposed as the kid. Do you agree?

When I was developing Dance Moms, a dancer handed me a VHS tape and said, “You should look into this world.” That tape sat on my desk for three years while I just looked at it. I was like, “No one’s going to watch a show with just little kids dancing at a dance competition.” I just couldn’t figure that out. Then duh, it’s not just about the kids dancing, it’s about their mothers. My entire career I’ve been fascinated with talented kids and stage moms, and what makes a stage mom tick.

It’s what has allowed the show to survive, having the moms on the show while the kids are dancing. The moms have to make the sacrifice for their kids. There is a lot of drama which keeps people tuned in, but that drama allows the viewers to hang in there until the kids dance. Yes, the show’s controversial, but [viewers] stomach it because they can see that the kids have the chance to become stars. If the kids weren’t talented, people wouldn’t buy into it.

I have to know: Was Mina really forced to give up her actual teddy bear after her dance about growing up?

So you’re wanting the dirt about the teddy bear? Mina showed up every single day with that teddy bear. Glo thought it was the perfect story to explore: when is the right time to take the teddy bear away. Everything we do is an exercise to try to get a kid to that emotional level to have that connection really show in the dance on stage. So Mina came onstage...Well, you saw that she vomited before the dance.

She was really torn up about it.

She actually did have a stomach ache that day. So I don’t want to imply that she was nervous or scared about giving up the teddy bear. But she really did feel like and knew that she was going to have to give up the teddy bear. So after the dance, it was taken away. She won first place, and as a reward Glo was going to give it back to her the following week. But she had already gone out and bought another one.

What about the deal between Mina and her mom that if she cried onstage, she could get a new teddy bear? That’s some dirty business.

I mean, look, Glo didn’t have a problem with it. Her mom didn’t have a problem with it. She felt like it was a good way to get her there. Look, isn’t that what a lot of actors do? Drawing from a real place to shine on stage?

Is there different consideration, though, since they’re not adult actors, but children who might not have full cognizance of what’s going on?

I don’t know if you noticed, but Mina’s really smart.

She’s an evolved eight-year-old for sure. [During the season, one mother admits she’s “scared” of Mina.]

Very mature for her age. Mina wasn’t walking around crying every day about the thought of losing her teddy bear. I think she actually appreciated the exercise. And she felt like it did help her get to where she needed to be. [In the hours after our interview, Stinson confirms through a Hulu rep that, while it didn’t make the cut, Glo did return Mina’s old teddy bear to her the following week.]

Was there any instance this season where you pulled back from a dance or scene idea because it made a child uncomfortable?

I can’t think of any. Glo would definitely pull back if the kid felt too uncomfortable or she felt like it wasn’t good for the kid.

Ashlan is frequently emotional throughout the season, particularly as lead of the finale number given that her cousin died of an overdose. In the first episode of the series, Glo says: “I can make these kids stars—and I can do it without them resenting me in ten years.” How did you ask Ashlan to mine her past for a performance while ensuring she won’t later be resentful about it?

I’m not her mother. I don’t pretend to be anyone’s mother. The mother is there to step in when she feels like something is wrong or inappropriate or is too much for her daughter. When Glo created this dance, no clue that Ashlan had that connection. Ashlan is a special kid. She’s going to be a breakout star from this show. She has a very interesting, compelling relationship with her mother.

Her mother [Lisa] told me off-camera that she is incredibly jealous of the other mother-daughter relationships and wants to do whatever it takes to get that. But what I admire about her is that she lets Ashlan express herself. You know who used to do that? Jessalynn Siwa [JoJo’s mom]. When there’s a stage mom that lets their kid be who they are, they’re going to shine and have a better chance of becoming a star. I have seen dance moms destroy their kids’ careers because they’re hovering and squashing all of their personality. So what I adore about Lisa is she’s just letting Ashlan be who she is. And if you look at Ashlyn’s arc, Glo took—what was her downfall?

Her emotions.

And turned it into this wonderful, beautiful thing where she ends up basically winning a national championship for the team because of her performance. Glo did that on purpose. She needed someone to act, and so she took what Ashlan does best, which is cry and show her emotions. I thought it was beautiful.

Season one of the new show leaves off on “to be continued,” leaving the door open to a second season. But I’ve seen some chatter online that Studio Bleu is now closed.

The owner put it up for sale, and now Glo is opening up her own studio called The Dance Lab. All the Blue Junior Elites are intact. The team has stayed together. They’re currently all training together, and incredibly excited about this new opportunity that Glo has. People are coming out of the woodwork. She’s slammed with new students signing up for the new season, which all has to happen really fast. When kids sign up for a dance studio in a dance competition season, they have to start in October. So, it’s been gangbusters.

It’s revealed during the show that Glo lives in the basement of her star student Audrey’s home. Is she still living there?

She is. Look, I was just as blown away as anyone else. I interviewed Tammi [Audrey’s mom], and she said Glo lived in her basement. She goes, “Yes. I moved her in to have full-time access for my daughter, to make my daughter a star. Glo moved in.” And Glo did her job—got her on Broadway. [Audrey appeared in the ensemble of the Music Man revival starring Hugh Jackman and Sutton Foster.]

Discourse around children on TV has changed so much since you last made Dance Moms, with projects like Quiet on Set, Jeannette McCurdy’s book, and Demi Lovato’s upcoming documentary. Have you engaged with any of those?

I haven’t engaged with any of those projects. I refrain from talking to the media. I’ve done a couple of podcasts, but just with the OGs. So, that’s pretty much it.

How do you see the show’s place fitting in the conversation about whether children should be on TV at all?

Kids have been on TV forever, whether it be scripted or reality. I follow the rules to the T. There are very strict child labor laws in place for reality TV, and they can only be in front of the camera for a certain amount of time. They have to be supervised. There’s a teacher advocate. So, I feel like I’ve been squeaky clean when it comes to that. I really do have the best interest in the kids on the show.

But again, the mothers and the dance teachers are there for a reason. End of the day, they’re the ones that made that decision, and have to protect their kids. I think at this point, every single kid from Studio Bleu had absolutely an amazing experience and really can’t wait to do it again.

What do you find is most misunderstood about Dance Moms?

[a long beat of silence] I’m not sure I have a great answer for that.

Okay.

Because I don’t talk about it a lot. You’re asking me these questions, I don’t really— because I’ve stayed hidden a little bit. I don’t know. Can I think about that one?

Does pumping out 31 episodes or so a year make it difficult to reflect back on what you’re making?

Yes, absolutely. I’ve done over 300 hours of Dance Moms programming. So, to be honest, if I need to remember something that happened, I would call JoJo, because she knows the show inside and out. She knows more about the show than I do. [pauses] But, I don’t know. I don’t know, Savannah.

How did you find it to talk about the show for the first time in this way?

I’m so passionate about it, and I do love to talk about it. I don’t know why I really haven’t talked about it with someone like you. I don’t have kids, and these OGs are my kids. I just feel blessed and grateful—it’s the only thing I ever want to do. All I really care about are talented kids. People have asked me to do other TV shows, other projects, and I have no interest.

It was a pleasure to pick your brain about the show.

Okay, wait. Can we just be real for a second? Tell me what you thought, honestly.

It was incredible reality TV. I was amazed by how much you were able to get away with. The body bags, for instance, represent a very intense topic, but there’s also something perversely funny about these kids fighting to out-dance each other so they aren’t first to get zipped up—or become the head under the tray in the number inspired by The Menu. It makes for complicated watching, which is what made me want to talk to you about it.

What was important to me, even with the heavy topics, is to always find the humor in everything, because we are dealing with kids. You don’t get to see a lot of moments with the kids laughing. The moms are more distraught than the kids are about having to be the head on the platter. Or zip themselves up in the body bag. I do wish we had more time to show all the fun. The bus rides are unbelievable. It’s the best part of the show, and it’s the first thing that gets cut out because of time.

My sister and I recently watched the reunion together, and it was interesting to look back on the show as adults.

Wasn’t it? That was one of the best weeks of my career—just being able to reconnect, knowing that we’re all okay, we’re good. We actually all went out and got matching tattoos. [Stinson angles his right arm towards the Zoom camera.] It says “DM” in cursive. I’m old, I’m 56. I should have been at bed at 9:00, and they’re taking me to a tattoo parlor at midnight. I was like, “Whatever, I’ll do whatever you guys pick out.”

This interview has been edited and condensed.

The Amateur Art Sleuth and the Missing Masterpiece

How a Grey’s Anatomy Writer Used Lies to Make Must-See TV

Harris Just Comes Out and Says It: Trump Is F--king Nuts

Tell Me Lies’ Twisted Season Finale, Explained

Princess Diana and the Occult

Steve Bannon Has Called His “Army” to Do Battle—No Matter Who Wins in November

The Menendez Brothers’ Aunt Joan on Why They Must Be Freed

Inside the Violence and Radicalization of America’s Neo-Nazi Youth

The Olivia Nuzzi–Ryan Lizza Saga Has Reached a Salacious New Level